Gordon Parks, Doll Test, Harlem, New York, 1947, Gelatin silver print © Jack Shainman Gallery — Gordon Parks, *Doll Test, Harlem, New York,* 1947, Gelatin silver print © Jack Shainman Gallery

Andrea Blanch: I’m curious about how you decide to work with an artist. Is it an intellectual, analytical process, or is it a little more spontaneous, like falling in love?

Jack Shainman: You know to tell the truth: it’s all of the above. A lot about it is intuitive too and believing in the artist. When you take on an artist to work with in the gallery, it’s usually a long-term commitment, rather than just a quick show. It takes a long time to build a career.

Andrea: You’re in a unique position with your gallery, from what I’ve observed, in the sense that you have a lot of African artists. I think it’s fair to say that you’ve started a whole movement towards the representation of artists of color with your gallery.

Jack: Oh, that was a natural thing that happened. I’ve always been interested in having a global programme. I’ve worked with European artists and gave a lot of their first shows in New York. I’ve always been involved in bringing in different voices, especially people that haven’t been represented but where the work is really worthy. In the end, it’s really about the work. It’s not about trying to fill quotas and be politically correct. It’s about the art. And so, it’s just what happens by being global because that’s what the world is like.

Andrea: I read that your parents used to take you to the Clark. That’s where you learned about art.

Jack: Yes. It looks like you’ve done your research [laughs]

Andrea: That is very different from the art that you are showing today.

Jack: Although I did do a show last year in the summer, maybe two summers ago, both at the School and in New York, called “The Pursuit of Happiness” where we did a lot of juxtapositions between historic and contemporary art.

Andrea: I saw that! I’ve been to every one of the shows since the School opened!

Jack: Thank you so much. We just opened the “Basquiat x Warhol” show and we got about 3000 people. I was so pleased. We did it rather quickly but I managed to get eight of these collaborative paintings to start the dialogue about their friendship and relationship and all their volatility. The show is very multifaceted. We have each of their works, separately, but then juxtaposed as well, including a lot of Warhol’s photography and his first three films and on and on.

I located a couple of their collaborative paintings, which I’ve always been interested in as a collector. That was more about the opportunity to show two contemporary masters, who I’ve basically idolized since the 80s, and Warhol even before that as a kid. The program at the School and that at the gallery in New York is different. The School is run more like, I suppose, a Kunsthalle but also not, because we pay for it [laughs]. Doing shows up there, they’re big, you’ve been there. It’s 30,000 square feet. I could have never done this Warhol show in New York. Same thing when I did the “Five Decades of El Anatsui” throughout the whole School. It’s something I would never have enough space to present something like that.

Andrea: How did the whole Kinderhook School happen?

Jack: Well it all happened because I had a farm -- a little farm around 8 mins from there.

Andrea: With horses.

Jack: Yes, I always dreamt about it. It was about storage and having viewing rooms, where you could look at things and invite people over. And one day, driving by, there was a “for sale” sign in front of The School. I had always been curious about it, because it matched the style of the town’s architecture but it was so out of scale, for everything. It’s the biggest building in town. Originally, I just wanted to go look, just because I was curious. And then, we ended making an offer and buying it on the spot. It was kind of pleasantly naive. Even though I had renovated many spaces in New York, it was never something of this scale and never something that I owned.

Andrea: But, Jack, I know that more art has come to the Kinderhook area, as it has become more gentrified. What I find incredible is during the first opening, you brought the community together that way. It was just so heartwarming.

Jack: Thank you. Well, the town has really been so supportive of us. It ended up being such a good use for that building. When that building was first built, it was a local wonder of the world, because of the scale and this kind of new construction method with steel. It was also inaugurated by FDR, just before he became president. It was a really big deal. But my point is that it’s always been about education and it still is. We’re open free to the public every Saturday and what we do is a lot of teaching. On a very basic level, we bus kids in from the local schools to see exhibitions but even in the city, we’re really about education, and students come in all the time. Even with our collectors and my directors as well, I’m always bringing in new things to show. Because of that, we’re able to do something with Meleko that’s so ambitious. First and foremost, it bridges together a lot of his work, encompassing many museum shows that he’s had under one roof. It’s a much greater picture of his practice. Having the school is something so beautiful -- I feel so privileged to have that. As gallerists we love to put on shows.

Andrea: It’s like having a Met Museum of your own.

Jack: Yes!

Richard Mosse, Better Than The Real Thing II, 2012, Digital C-Print, © Jack Shainman — Richard Mosse, *Better Than The Real Thing II*, 2012, Digital C-Print, © Jack Shainman

Andrea: Let me just ask you this question: Do you feel that your identity as a gay Jewish man inflects your curatorial practice? It’s interesting, because of this show you’re having now.

Jack: That’s probably more like a dissertation than a question [laughs]. Do you know what I mean?

Andrea: Let me ask how you began: Your original location for the gallery was in Washington D.C. Why there?

Jack: I went to school and worked in a gallery there. I knew what they were lacking, in terms of younger artists, and I knew a few people there. I was afraid of failing in New York, because I didn’t know the people in that art world.

Andrea: So you founded the gallery with you partner Claude Simard, who has since passed away. What role did he play in the gallery’s growth and how has your role changed since he passed?

Jack: It’s an interesting question. In a way, I’ve just continued what we have started out with. We had a philosophy; we love to discover, and bring new things in to the arena that haven’t been thought of or discussed or looked at. With Claude and I, the way we work together is like how a Latin family works: we were so close. We could discuss anything together. Claude was such a risk-taker, he would literally risk everything we had just to do a show or to get an artist. I learned how to do that from him. And although he was an artist, he loved other artist’s work, which is not always the case.

Andrea: That’s true. So now you’re taking the risk by yourself?

Jack: Yes, but we always did it together. Of course, we’re bringing in new artists all the time and the gallery evolves and grows, like an organic thing. At the same time, I think of Claude everyday. I feel so lucky to have known him and worked with him.

Andrea: Yes, he was a remarkable person. Do you see the artists in your collection as linked thematically or aesthetically in any way?

Jack: Each artist that I have is such an individual. When I look for artists, I’m looking for strong individuals but I do think there are singular voices that maybe you can link them together. I’m always looking for artists of high quality; I’m looking for intelligence and for newness.

Andrea: I read an article about you in the Wall Street Journal where you were highly praised on your multicultural approach with a focus on African heritage and modern black identity, such as El Anatsui and Malick Sidibé -- did you read this?

Jack: I have, but I don’t remember. [laughs]

Malick Sidibé, Nuit de Nöel (Happy-Club), 1963/2007, Gelatin Silver Print © Jack Shainman — Malick Sidibé, *Nuit de Nöel (Happy-Club)*, 1963/2007, Gelatin Silver Print © Jack Shainman

Andrea: Was it a conscious choice to use your gallery as platform to celebrate black artists?

Jack: Not really. It wasn’t like Claude and I were sitting around and said, “Gee, how can we make some money? Let’s represent artists of color because in the year 2018 or 2019, people will be paying a lot for them.” Do you know what I mean? It’s more about believing in the work. When we saw Kerry James Marshall in 1992, we knew we wanted to work with him. It was instinctual. It was so outside the trend of the time, because back then there was this whole slick Neo-Geo schtick. There was no figurative painting happening -- maybe a little. I’m a collector deep, deep down. You might have read one of those articles, talking about how I used to buy art from students when I was eleven years old.

Andrea: No, I haven’t! Really?

Jack: From students at the Williams College at ten, maybe twelve years old. I’m so lucky that I’m still a collector. And when I walk into a studio and I want to own everything in there, I’m pretty sure that’s it for me. So I can be not nervous about it because I love it. Will anybody else love it? Well, you have to bring it into the arena you have to edit it, install it, promote it, explain it, educate the people. Things take time, you know?

Andrea: Did you have a lot of pushback from the art world at that time when you started doing that?

Jack: Yes.

Andrea: I could imagine.

Jack: I mean, I used to not get into art fairs because I had too many artists of color. It was so different. Now it’s what everybody wants to talk to me about. It’s ironic.

Andrea: What’s so ironic about it is that you’ve pushed the envelope so far, in terms of representation and inclusion. And that’s alright in New York City and the West Coast, but then, there’s the rest of the country, where racists are still everywhere. I think you have a very unique stance with your gallery. I have so much admiration for you.
Jack: Thank you.